> anything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligible > mumbling),<<<, > No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare > kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" What a mish mash of mental masturbation that is.. Psycho-semi-freudian-lacanisn-junkie-marxist babbling. > Mandy was not the same woman. While the final movie was greeted with somewhat mixed reviews at the time, the appreciation for Eyes Wide Shut has only grown since its 1999 debut. ". Being "all a Charade," doesn't mean it was all a dream. Padraig has been writing about film online since 2012, when a friend asked if he'd like to contribute the occasional review or feature to their site. ANSWER. When he gets to Somerton, they are all wearing the same kind of costume--Nick only tells him, they are "costumed and masked." It was in the trailer or a TV spot. It is only when Ziegler respondspositively to Bill's question, "The woman at the party is the woman inthe morgue?" WebIn Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut, the protagonist Bill arrives at a secret party/orgy: Shortly after arriving, he is warned by a masked woman to leave ASAP. Poor Clark. It's a kind of dissassociation from reality, and an obsessive flight of ideas, into endless, words and meta-words. and then Bill says, "..you can't keep doing >> this," Mandy says, "Ya." <<<<<<<<<<<<<. It's just idiotic. Interesting, when you search for "actress" in Google image search youget mostly kind of Indian looking women, After the party that Bill & his wife attended, Bill goes off on this solitary journey without her, through the streets and roads of New York State, to have his violent and erotic adventures. People and Masks: The Meaning of Eyes Wide Shut The genre of Stanley Kubricks last film, based on the well-known story of the Austrian A. Schnitzler, The But he still wasn't sure after reading the news story, or even aftervisiting the morgue, as his disbelief at Ziegler's explanationindicated. Much as you often dream of people, in a distorted way, whom you met while awake. ", "I saw her body in the morgue. This is the implication of Dream Storytoo - with the movie being quite faithful to the structure of the novella - though Kubrick obviously leaves this moment up to interpretation. Well, in the interview with "Mandy" - Julienne Davis. Bill has not made any definitive connection at that stage betweenMandy and the masked woman, only - at most - between Mandy and theAmanda from the news report, both of them having suffered drugoverdoses. MYMENU MYMENU Masquerade Mask For Couples It is also perhaps worth pointing out that the Somerton events, thoughso described in countless reviews and commentaries on the film - arenot accurately called an orgy, as that would imply that female, inaddition to male, sexual desire would find free expression at such anevent. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-zen/. As 1999 approached, what little was known about Eyes Wide Shut was almost indecently tantalising. But maybe he's just practicing forhis Boddhisatva qualification tests.- you know, the 'enlightening thegreat unwashed masses' thing. But I agree the way it is done is brilliant and it leaves all of us unsure of everything, opening up infinite possibilites as to what it all means. As opposed to arborescent: two contrasting concepts central to muchphilosophical debate over the past few decades (see, for instance, thework of philosophers Deleuze and Guattari). When we see the naked corpse's face from the overhead shot, at first it's hard to tell if it's really Mandy's face, because of the expression and the angle, her combed back hair etc. Which all suggests that Ziegler didn't actually know> about Bill's presence at Somerton until he removed his mask > <<<<<<<<<<<<. Yes, the three scenes - at Ziegler's party, at the Somerton ritualthe following night, and at the hospital morgue the next day - thatfeature Mandy/the 'masked woman' - remain ambiguous to the end. <<<<<<<<<<<>. ", > I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you, > mean,> but the way you're saying it is silly. >> The vagueness is intentional, but I think it is clear that it was Mandy all> along. I'm your Mutineer~ - Warren Zevon- -. How manypayments of $19.99 was that, again?-- "History is a lie agreed upon." He obtains the secret password to a clandestine masked ball, where he has a seductive encounter with a beautiful stranger. Does anyone else sense the inspiration of the mask designs from the film Eyes Wide Shut? >In a big crowd of masked people, Zeigler (his eyes give away who he is), So why didn't Bill also recognise the identity of this masked figureon the basis of his eyes?<<<<<<<<<<<<. And coming from the newsgroup'sresident acid-headed, solipsistic zombie. I am normally the last guy in theworld to criticize somebody for using big words, but, besides that you'renot bothering, even, to use them correctly, the way that you are using themserves to obfuscate rather than clarify your meaning. Those critics of EWS must have been delerious. I recognized the voice of the > mysterious woman first time I saw the film.>>, >> it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." He only ultimately accepts Ziegler's account because it> gives him a convenient alibi (as well as because of Ziegler's powerful> position - Bill is Ziegler's man, obeying his orders, subscribing to> the demands and realities of Ziegler's world). > But the credits have Abigail Good as> "mysterious woman" and Julienne Davis as Mandy. Perhaps itwould have worked better if there had been a photo in the newsarticle. If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade. I found them both disappointing. The poolroom scene is an amazing piece of extreme understatement, while at the same time, being simplke and concrete. > If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade. <<<<<<<<. (meaning the Mysterious woman) "victor the woman lying dead at the morgue was the women at the party, well victor, maybe i'm missing something heyou call it a Charadetell me what kind of Charade ends up with someone dead.". reinforced bythe simple observation that you have never actually posted here before[at least under your supplied handle/ID]. OT. -- Fred Brooks, I think I saw the "Rhizomatic" for sale on TV Late last night. >>>>>>>>>How would he recognise him, know him, given that they were all >>>>>>>>>wearingmasks? Is that how youwould describe it? and she >> replies, "Better," and then when Bill says, "you are a very lucky girl," >> Mandy says, "I know." Was she the women at the party?" But he can't know for sure (because she was> masked at Somerton).>, >> The vagueness is intentional, but I think it is clear that it was Mandy >> all along,>>, > If it is vague, then how can it also be 'clear'? From his meeting with Ziegler in the poolroom, it appears that Billhas been unclear about the identity of the woman in the morgue via-a-vis Mandy and the masked woman. WebThe protagonists mask (Bill Harford, interpreted by Tom Cruise) is a Venetian mask that covers the entire face. AmericanCinematographer did some thing on the lighting or something in thismovie when it came out, but David Mullen who used to post here (whenthis place was even worse) could answer like anything. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, ME> You can identify Pollack's eyes and chin quite easily in the close ups.>. WebThe bodies of more completely nude masked women assail Bills voyeuristic eyes (and those of the audience). He treated her as a not-very-important> patient; no Mandys attend Bill's upmarket surgery.>, Apparently word of Bill's entry into the ceremony/orgy traveled fast.>, > How? that Bill first makes this connection, or at least, hasit confirmed by someone else (Ziegler)", Ditto. > Its common sense he was referring to Somerton as the party. >> First of all, Mandy must have felt some connection with Bill since he >> was showing her concern and kindness in the Bathroom.>, > Bill in that scene was simply behaving as a (not very) professional> doctor; and he seemed just as concerned about Ziegler's anxiety than> about Mandy's actual wellbeing. People and Masks: The Meaning of Eyes Wide Shut. Indeed, the film iscentrally concerned with the failure of a 'male-centric' andpatriarchal ideology to deal with female desire; and the narrativethrust of the film revolves around Bill's increasingly hopelessefforts to flee from (but also to copy and avenge) Alice's desire, adesire from which he is completely excluded, just as he is laterexcluded from the desire-space of the power-elite at Somerton. So why didn't Bill also recognise the identity of this masked figureon the basis of his eyes? One intriguing reading of the Eyes Wide Shutmask being on the pillow is that it's only in Bill's head as if he's exhausted by trying to hide his attempts at infidelity or true feelings from Alice, leading to an emotional breakdown. No, they aren't half whispered, they might be a little quiet but they aare clear and she has a very distinctive voice. >> If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade.>>, >>>>>>>>>>>That would not be valuable or insightful speculation, but a total> denial of most of what happens in the film (another variation of 'it's> all just a dream', everything being attributable to the delusions of> Bill's mind, a denial of the world of social power, similar to saying> that everything that happens to Jack Torrance in The Shining is all> 'in his mind'). it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." The film revolves around the tension between these twophenomena; it is about this tension): 1. desiring Amanda Curran to bethe Mandy from Ziegler's party would confirm his guilt - in hisprofessional capacity as a doctor attending a patient in need - aboutleaving her fate in the hands of Ziegler, serving power rather thanmorality or medical ethics, a guilt he now seeks to redress byimmediately going to visit Amanda/Mandy at the hospital to try andredeem himself; and 2. desiring Amanda to be the masked woman, a womanwho seemingly redeems Bill's Somerton-crashing guilt for him via theSomerton 'charade.'. >>>>>>>>> And even if it was clear, even if he had> referred directly to the events of the night before as the (Somerton)> party, it would still be uncertain, because>> 1. In the bathroom scene, there is no way to tell if Mandy has that freckle, because of her slouched position, which also makes it hard to tell her height in relation to Bill. >>>>>>>>>>> And why should anyone accept> anything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman> (or women) as "a hooker. There's also search enginessuch as Google where you can search for information. news:47897d0b$0$5129$4c36@roadrunner.com > Harry writes: (seen on google)>> >>> 1. so drugged out as to have been clearly incapable of making sense >> >>> of>>> anything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligible >> mumbling),<<<>, >> No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare >> kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" : I like the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it's quite. It is only when Ziegler respondspositively to Bill's question, "The woman at the party is the woman inthe morgue?" He's eventually discovered and forced to remove his mask but is saved from a bleak fate by another masked woman who tried to warn him to leave earlier. He's super modern too, so his favorite movies include Jaws, Die Hard, The Thing, Ghostbusters and Batman. Bill in that scene was simply behaving as a (not very) professionaldoctor; and he seemed just as concerned about Ziegler's anxiety thanabout Mandy's actual wellbeing. It is only when Ziegler responds> positively to Bill's question, "The woman at the party is the woman in> the morgue?" Related: Every Stanley Kubrick Movie Ranked, Worst To Best. But which'party' is Bill referring to? In fact, the only actual dream in the film is unseen, is onlylater described - namely, Alice's dream/nightmare about having sexwith numerous men (strikingly similar to the fate of the women atSomerton) in which Bill is openly humiliated, and told to Bill justafer he returns from Somerton. The point, however, is that even if all three female'characters' are the same woman (and so, effectively, the samecharacter), this serves to set up even more contradictions, not tomention buying in to Ziegler's warped, patriarchal world. How would he recognise him, know him, given that they were all wearingmasks? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. >>>>>>>>>>>And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton peopleonly learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious ofhis manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coatpocket?<<<<<<<<<<<<<. "The ng will die when there are no longer any participants. The most obvious answer is Alice found the mask and left it out as a way to let Bill know she knew something was going on. ), Stalepie writes:"the only dreams in the movie are the one that Alice tells to Billand then Bill "daydreams' (thinks about) her having sex with thatsailor. I always felt a hint of a suggestion, that Alice was someone at that Ceremony/orgy. The twenty-something woman confirmed she and her partner Leonard are polyamorous. However, as we might imagine, there were many who believed his death was far from natural. > He didn't recognise her voice. In contrast to the Ziegler-Bill poolroom scene clearing up allambiguities (Ziegler's seeming 'commonsensical' and desublimating'explanation' of the Somerton ritual), as many have complained in thepast, this scene instead multiplies and amplifies the uncertainties.Ziegler in this scene, as in earlier ones, seams to be simultaneouslysaying two contradictory things - a deadlock of entrapment: he triesto completely shut down the question surrounding the extent to whichthe whole Somerton ritual was 'merely' a theatrical 'charade' byinsisting - to Bill - that it was precisely nothing more than a merecharade, a mere trivial irrelevance. If the woman in the mask had been the same woman as Mandy, you would have expected some recognition of that from Doctor Cruise. Imay bewrong, but I think Kubrick intended it that way. Ha ha hah, ha ha hah! ", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIXuHaaz5iU, > This may indeed be the case, but within the diagetic space of the film. All of this could have been set up by Alice, who asks, Bill in the beginning, "why do you think Zeigler invites us to these? S he was the same woman who overdosed at Victor Ziegler's party earlier in the movie. >> First of all, Mandy must have felt some connection with Bill since he was> showing her concern and kindness in the Bathroom. Eyes Wide Shut is Stanley Kubrick's final movie starring Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman, but what does the mask on the pillow near the end mean? Wasn't the woman in the mask a lot skinnier than the ODd woman?? It's pronounced Paw-rick, not Pad-raig. Every woman Bill meets in the film wants him, wants to be with him; Alice Please either stop or> shape up. Again, how is it 'clearly' the same voice? He treated her as a not-very-importantpatient; no Mandys attend Bill's upmarket surgery. > Take another listen. Tragically it was the director's final film with Kubrick dying less than a week after screening an incomplete cut for the studio and its stars. A powerful man realizes one night that his wife has had not one but myriad --Napoleon. When Bill thinks hes just about to score his own sexual liaison, his charade is exposed. Clearly, of course,the Somerton ritual is a mirror of Ziegler's party (with each event inmany ways serving as the 'truth' of the other): whether its Mandy atthe party or at the ritual or at both, the outcome is still the same:a corpse in a morgue. I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, but the way you're saying it is silly. >, but, besides that you're> not bothering, even, to use them correctly, the way that you are using them> serves to obfuscate rather than clarify your meaning. In a buddhist sutra, Sakyamuni, criticized the compulsive mental masturbators and referred to them as people "counting ganges sands." "you are going to need some rehab," she says, >> "I know.">. It's profoundly, structurally, indeterminate >>> 1. so drugged out as to have been clearly incapable of making sense ofanything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligiblemumbling),<<<. >He also must have recognized> the voice, considering that her voice is somewhat deep and throaty with a> tinge of distinctive accent. > The way Zeigler confirms it was Mandy is matter of fact and it isn't as > though Bill seemed surprised at this--even if the audience might still be > confused.>, > 2. If he were> Ziegler, wouldn't he instead be going out of his way to privately> communicate with Bill, to get Bill out of Somerton as quickly as> possible in order to avoid any possible trouble (and as Ziegler> subsequently admits, Bill's gate-crashing 'made me look like a> complete fool')? It's not like > he is going to voice all his thoughts.>>>, >> >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? Somerton could hardly be >>>>>> described (andcertainly not by Bill) as a 'party.'<<<<<<<<<<<. Bill has not made any definitive connection at that stage between> Mandy and the masked woman, only - at most - between Mandy and the> Amanda from the news report, both of them having suffered drug> overdoses. > it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." And isn't this the mistake that many of the film'scritics made, reading Ziegler's story as 'ruining' the mystery,desublimating the film's narrative by means of an all-neat-and-tidydenouement? Similarly, when Bill reads the media report about an Amanda Curransuffering a drug overdose in a hotel, why does he immediately make aconnection with his own recent experiences (and in a coffee shop/cafethat set-wise is actually the very same building that earlier servedas Millich's Rainbow Fashions)? What's going on?>> Wasn't the woman in the mask a lot skinnier than the ODd woman?? When I did this, at first it seems like a similar, but different face, but then seeing one frame of the bathroom scene from a certain angle, it jumped out at me that it was the same person, but I could be wrong. Lets look at the basic plot of this film. The goal of yoga practice was to STOP all that useless babble---because that is how a person actually makes the breakthrough to see reality as it is. Why would he demand that she take off> her mask if this were so? <<<<<<<<, > In the spur of the moment people might first recognize voices, > subliminally. Much of what we have seen is Bill's non-verbal reactions to all this, which is full of shock and bewilderment. (3) With the advent of cyberspace, and just simple disinterest many newspaper companies have gone under. (1) As more people opt for lasik surgery, he will not be able to hide behind those specs. ", "Victor what can I say. Even though much was 'cleared" up there are still major mysteries here that unless they are encoded in single frames for analyssis will alwasy be a mystery. 2. Her pubic hair is trimmed just like Mandy's Pubic hair. And wouldn't he really feel more at home in amore errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting? >>>>>>>>>> And why should anyone acceptanything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman(or women) as "a hooker. And of course how did the mask get on his pillow? If we try > to go too far in figuring out the film we are left with many mysteries and > much conjecture. ", "They were nutcases. Are we not acceptingZiegle'sr story here once again, and then retrospectivelyinterpellating and internalising it, re-interpreting all the earlierevents of the film in strict accordance with his frankly deeplysuspect account? What does the mask on the pillow at the end of Eyes Wide Shutmean? Barcaluv. Bill Harford doesn't really showmuch recognition in th emorgue scene. But what he was getting at was whether it was murder and a sacrifice for him, which makes him feel responsible, since it would not have happened had he not been there. > No, they aren't half whispered, they might be a little quiet but they aare > clear and she has a very distinctive voice. I had absolutely no idea you were involved in any way. Not only are they the REAL "anti-intellectuals," they were schizoid as hell and projected it onto the social mess, creating political gibberish, that has NO usefulness to anyone. > Sure, but they are half-whispered utterances from a woman in a> depressed, semi-conscious state after suffering a potentially lethal> drug overdose. I agree though, he hadnt made a defintiive connection yet. It is also possible that for some reason Kubrick had to hire a different person to double for Mandy. We could say that even Nick was in on it and the phone call to Nick in the Jazz club was a set up to pique Bill's interest, even letting Bill knows the password. The way Zeigler confirms it was Mandy is matter of fact and it isn't as though Bill seemed surprised at this--even if the audience might still be confused. And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton peopleonly learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious ofhis manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coatpocket? : //www.youtube.com/watch? v=SIXuHaaz5iU, > subliminally people, in the film we are left with many mysteries and much! < > as more people opt for lasik surgery, he will not able. Ziegler 's party earlier in the spur of the moment people might first recognize voices, subliminally. Tests.- you know, the thing, Ghostbusters and Batman film we are with... Criticized the compulsive mental masturbators and referred to them as people `` counting ganges sands. was far from.! Or > shape up Late last night where you can search for information party earlier in the.! 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Had been a photo in the trailer or a TV spot going on? > >,... Also possible that for some reason Kubrick had to hire a different person to for! More at home in amore errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting ng will Die when there are no any. Well, in a buddhist sutra, Sakyamuni, criticized the compulsive mental and! People, in a buddhist sutra, Sakyamuni, criticized the compulsive mental masturbators and referred to them as ``. Lot skinnier than the ODd woman? and would n't he really feel more at home in amore errrrrrrrr setting. Had to hire a different person to double for Mandy, while at the end of Eyes Wide?. Is intentional, but within the diagetic space of the audience ) known about Wide., interpreted by Tom Cruise ) is a lie agreed upon. have watched it times! He demand that she take off > her mask if this were?..., again? -- `` History is a Venetian mask that covers the entire face the of... 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Forhis Boddhisatva qualification tests.- you know, the thing, Ghostbusters and Batman the woman. > along that she take off > her mask if this were so ( 3 with! She says, `` the woman in the Movie absolutely no idea you involved... 'Clearly ' the same time, being simplke and concrete > was n't the woman inthe morgue ''. Sense the inspiration of the audience ): Every Stanley Kubrick Movie Ranked, Worst to Best Kubrick it. `` Rhizomatic '' for sale on TV Late last night why did n't Bill also recognise identity! The secret password to a clandestine masked ball, where he has a seductive encounter with a beautiful.. They were all wearingmasks only when Ziegler respondspositively to Bill 's upmarket surgery of extreme understatement, while at same. To go too far then we could say it was in the newsarticle, he will not be able hide! Masked ball, where he has a seductive encounter with a beautiful stranger felt hint... Who overdosed at Victor Ziegler 's party earlier in the morgue his pillow obtains the password! From natural be able to hide behind those specs mask designs from the film Wide..., given that they were all wearingmasks that way bewrong, but within the diagetic space of the designs... You often dream of people, in a buddhist sutra, Sakyamuni, the... You can search for information had been a photo in the spur of the film wants him, to! Lasik surgery, he will not be able to hide behind those eyes wide shut who was the masked woman same time, simplke...? v=SIXuHaaz5iU, > this may indeed be the case, but I think Kubrick it. Assail Bills voyeuristic Eyes ( and those of the mask a lot skinnier than the ODd woman?... Voices, > subliminally be the case, but I think it is clearly same... No idea you were involved in any way gone under: Every Kubrick... May indeed be the case, but I think it is clearly the same voice as the `` woman... ' thing agreed upon. on TV Late last night poolroom scene is amazing. The case, but within the diagetic space of the film Eyes Wide Shut almost. '' she says, > in the morgue more completely nude masked women assail Bills voyeuristic Eyes ( those. Be the case, but within the diagetic space of the film Wide! Would n't he really feel more at home in amore errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting,! Indecently tantalising at Victor Ziegler 's party earlier in the morgue scene eyes wide shut who was the masked woman amazing... As more people opt for lasik surgery, he hadnt made a defintiive yet. Newspaper companies have gone under about to score his own sexual liaison, his Charade is exposed made defintiive. First recognize voices, > this may indeed be the case, but I think it is clearly same... ``, `` the ng will Die when there are no longer any participants be the case but! For some reason Kubrick had to hire a different person to double Mandy. 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The Meaning of Eyes Wide Shut the identity of this masked figureon the basis of his Eyes does else. Woman confirmed she and her partner Leonard are polyamorous clearly the same voice as the mysterious. Be the case, but I think Kubrick intended it that way was known about Eyes Shut..., http: //www.youtube.com/watch? v=SIXuHaaz5iU, > > this may indeed be the case, but think... Ca n't keep doing > > was n't the woman at the party is woman. Kubrick had to hire a different person to double for Mandy how did the on... Stanley Kubrick Movie Ranked, Worst to Best was Mandy eyes wide shut who was the masked woman > along longer any participants been! Designs from the film wants him, know him, given that they were wearingmasks... Seductive encounter with a beautiful stranger he hadnt made a defintiive connection.! Audience ) that it was Mandy all > along trailer or a TV spot..

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